You are here

Native PAS PEDELEC support

19 posts / 0 new
Last post
shaman
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
VESC Free
Joined: 2018-12-09 15:59
Posts: 55
Native PAS PEDELEC support

Any chance of adding PAS/PEDELEC capabilities to the VESC Tool/firmware? Maybe could be an option in the setup wizard to do this? Could be useful for the ebikers.

benjamin
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 6 hours ago
Joined: 2016-12-26 15:20
Posts: 378

This has been in the software todo list for a while, but I haven't implemented it yet. The reason is that this usually is a legal requirement, and another legal requirement (in Sweden at least) is that the motor has a power below 250 W, which makes most VESC hardware kind of overkill.

Out of curiosity, are there places where a PAS sensor is required, but the allowed power is higher? Also, is it desirable for e.g. convenience to have a PAS sensor instead of a throttle? I can put it on higher priority if there are more good reasons to use a PAS sensor.

shaman
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
VESC Free
Joined: 2018-12-09 15:59
Posts: 55

It depends on the country or even state at to whether or not power(watts) is the limiting factor. Some places make speed the limiting factor rather than power. The laws are especially different outside the UK or EU. There is a decent summary of laws in various countries and states in the article below.

https://wheelsgo.net/government-standards-for-electric-bicycles-in-vario...

Being able to adjust power/speed profiles along with pedal assist can be good for travelers taking their ebike from State to State or from Country to Country where laws can change. 

storklompen
storklompen's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 2 months ago
Joined: 2019-07-30 12:25
Posts: 2

For Sweden and all other EU countries Electric bikes should be constructed according to EN15194, which for the Motor means "the maximum continuous rated power shall be measured according to EN 60034-1 when the motor reaches its thermal equilibrium as specified by the manufacturer."

EN15194 though doesn't use the word controller specifically, and mostly doesn't seem to know that it exist, more then as part of the motor.

There are 2 thing to consider though:

1 You are still allowed to build your own E-bike without CE-marking, as long as it is safe in traffic, has a safe electrical installation, use PAS for powering the motor, and the motor or electronics has a continuous effect of 250W, and you are not planning on selling it.

2 Most european countries have some extra regulations which equals small motor driven devices to pedestrians as long as they have the speed of a pedestrian (<5km/h)

 

--
Cargo bikes, the bigger, the better.

storklompen
storklompen's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 2 months ago
Joined: 2019-07-30 12:25
Posts: 2

With that said.

I'm planning on making/remaking/adding to the VESC all the components to make my cargobikes as lawfull as possible.

For the moment being:

  1. PAS sensor (cheap cots)
  2. Speed sensor (cheap cots, magnet in wheel)
  3. Display with info (cheap cots, maybe the bafang which is reprogrammable)
  4. Possibility to set power level like other e-bikes have. (3 step, cots)
  5. Brake sensors (power switch off)
  6. thumb throttle only working when PAS active
  7. Software which will use upp 1000 Watt up to 8km/h and 250 Watt when over 20 km/h. (this will make it work according to legal when tested in a roller bank. I'll call it the VAG patch.)
  8. Probably an extra 1000 Watt motor for upp to 5km/h when the primary maxes out in slopes...

 

 

 

--
Cargo bikes, the bigger, the better.

Schagg
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 2 months ago
Joined: 2018-03-16 19:38
Posts: 1

For someone wich is just able to use his feets (loosen the arms)......?

derlucas (github bldc app-ev.h ) forked the vesc-tool not bad. the problem is the non-sence of pedal-direction...wich could be very dangerous.

if a hall sensor is used, the duty-cycle gives info about direction.

sadly im not able to figure out how to do...

 

calibratable should be:

min cycles (magnets passing) before start ( safety)

duty < or > 50% (if magnet disk mounted other direction)

stop after x sec no cycle (safety)

pas together with throttle (throttle till x km\h then only max if pas active),\

pas independent (cadence x transmissionfactor x correcture potentiometer)

speed (wheel diameter x signals)

 

pin layout:

the ppm for hall-pas-sensor (15kohm between + and signal as pullup)

the adc1 as throttle (duty cycle or current)

tx speed (if gnd = one pulse)

rx limit erpm to x (while gnd active) (for gearshift)

break leavers could just drop down the adc1

adc2 pushaid?
 

hope to find somone who can help me.

ps: in swiss till 25kmh/500w ......... for s-pedelec 45kmh/1000w

 

Thank you and have a nice time

th0masrtg
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 5 days ago
VESC Free
Joined: 2019-05-22 11:52
Posts: 6

Hi, I am as well looking for a PAS / Torque sensor support for my ebike which uses a thumb throttle on the vesc at the minute. 

In termes of law, it is said that the power limit is 250w but it is rarely respected by the manufacturer (bosh /shimano), the bike is electronically blocked to never exceed the 25km/h but still get torque, then it must be geared by PAS sensor.

I would love to use a such sensor on my 1000w ebike. 

Ecyclist
Ecyclist's picture
Offline
Last seen: 16 hours 35 min ago
Joined: 2018-09-18 02:43
Posts: 16

I would love to have PAS / Torque sensor on my e-bike. I built a mountain bike with VESC and 6374 motor and it is perfect for off roading. No problems with state laws as long as I ride boondocks.

Les

vadicus
Offline
Last seen: 18 min 51 sec ago
VESC Free
Joined: 2018-08-17 07:26
Posts: 198

The US and California laws in particular are pretty generous for the amount of power you can have on your ebike and not require registration, insurance, etc: 750watts. The power output, however, is mentioned only in the federal regulations and that's almost unenforceable on this premise because local authorities follow the letter of state, municipal, county laws that are traditionally stricter than the federal ones. However, CA state law uses the speed as the main reference point, so if you don't do silly things like going 40mph on a sidewalk or a bike trail, you should be fine. You would need to have 20mph limit though to be legal on trails. If you go up to 28mph, you would need to be at least 16 years old and wear helmet. Can use the bike anywhere except bike trails. Some local parks, however, specifically prohibit ebikes, skateboards, etc.  That's usually those parks that run at the county level. State parks are more open. The law also explicitly prohibits modifying ebikes for high speed which would not make a lot of sense when you put it together yourself. But if you really want to go fast, pedaling or not, it's not too hard to register it. That would be a licensed vehicle from that point, however, which means no access to places that you would normally have on a non-registered compliant bike.

So, anyhow, a PAS would be good in most parts of the US.  

parasole
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 2 hours ago
Joined: 2017-11-08 09:50
Posts: 8

@Schagg, I did try derlucas build, however, could not make it work, I don't think it is fully functional... 

JR ebikes
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
VESC Platinum
Joined: 2020-06-04 18:39
Posts: 1

YES ..... please add PAS capability!  DIY builders worldwide would order the Vesc with PAS for ebikes.   

Oli.Hall
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 2020-06-16 16:08
Posts: 3

Hi Benjamin,

I would also be very interested in an Ebike app with PAS support for the VESC!

You mentioned that the 250W power limit in EU countries might possibly make the VESC excessive but I think the VESC would be perfect for ebike usage if the firmware was to support it natively.

The 250W limit defined in EU directive EN15194 only limits continuous rated motor power. The wording of the directive does not specify a limit for peak power and because of this many factory fitted systems from Bosch, Yamaha and Shimano regularly have peak power outputs of ~800W making the VESC a very desirable option for an Ebike. The directive is far more concerned with the 25kph speed limit and that assistance is only provided when pedalling.

The VESC6 appears to also have enough inputs to support all the regular ebike accessories, throttle, brake, pas, torque sensor and a serial display connection.

Please let me know if you would be interested in developing pas support it as I would be very interested in beta testing it. 

Kind regards.

Oli.

 

radler
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 2020-06-20 16:57
Posts: 6

for the time being, we must confine ourselves with an intermediate pathway. One possible route is
PAS -> arduino -> PPM -> vesc, example rc filter and arduino code here https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87116

Once we run an additional mcu (arduino) next to the esc, this opens the question which other functionality could move from there. In the end, cheap RC escs become possible to use with other sensors for voltage and current attached to the arduino and many of the vesc niceties moved there. All this was not neccessary to debate over if we only had PAS functionality in the VESC firmware. Maybe ater all VESC is not an ideal choice for ebikes/pedelecs?

dancing with bikes

Oli.Hall
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 2020-06-16 16:08
Posts: 3

Hi radler,

Regarding the Arduino route, there is actually already a very good solution that goes: PAS -> Arduino <-> Serial <-> VESC

It uses a fork of the well documented ForumsController code running on a Teensy 3.2 which gives similar functionality to the CA but in a much smaller package, see here: https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/gsm-middrive-with-vesc-and-teensy-forumscontroller-conversion.25787/

The Teensy 3.2 is 3.3v logic, but 5v tolerant and it has enough serial capable pins to also connect to various existing ebike displays. This is the route I will probably take as it does not require any external components you can connect all the digital inputs like brake and pas straight in, but a resistor divider is recommended on the throttle input to reduce the throttle voltage to the 0-3.3v range so that the full throttle range can be resolved.

Oli.

radler
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 2020-06-20 16:57
Posts: 6

Hey Oli,
yes, I know about the ForumsController and the ReducedForumsController.
It is my aim to reduce necessary interactions (get/set) with the drive train to a minimum. PAS is a legal requirement, display should be superfluous, 5 step power selector should suffice.
So long as VESC does not support PAS and Pedelec, an additional controller of some sorts is necessary. Once you go that route, you can do anything the computer (and interfaces) can do.
radler

dancing with bikes

kid_spl85
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 1 week ago
VESC Free
Joined: 2020-06-12 21:32
Posts: 2

Any update about native pas support for vesc.

Dennis Freiburg
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
Joined: 2018-12-28 17:42
Posts: 8

PAS can be done by custom application

kid_spl85
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 1 week ago
VESC Free
Joined: 2020-06-12 21:32
Posts: 2

any tutorial how to do this?

Dennis Freiburg
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
Joined: 2018-12-28 17:42
Posts: 8

just google VESC custom application. There you can put any code you want. I havent seen a direct tutorial for PAS.